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Old 11-01-2005, 09:15 AM   #1 (permalink)
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22R cam sprocket timing dot location

ok where is the cam sprocket dot suposed to be located at when engine is at number one TDC compression stroke ?

right on 12 o clock ?

11 o clock ?

or what ?

keep hearing differently

my 88 22RE with 133k all original
cam sprocket dot is dead on 12 o clock with crank dot at 6 o clock

is this right or wrong ?

chain slack or not ?


trying ot figure out why engine started running dead miss on a cylinder one day last month after having what seemed like chain noise for a year, but timing cover has not a single mark on it from any chain contact


i have rmeoved the cover and am at the chain,
found driver side guide to be cracked vertically a bunch, and missing top bolt hole loop, so the top half of the guide was floppy loose bad

passenger side guide is in awesome shape no wear

the tensioner head is severely worn into


so i am really stumped.


what do you think about this ??

engine ran great cept for a little popcorn popping in the idle at time,
but nothing bad otherwise
ran strong always

thanks
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Old 11-01-2005, 10:41 AM   #2 (permalink)
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On my 22r, with the crank @ TDC, the dot is about 11:00ish. Straight up 12:00 is one tooth too far. But I have had the head milled, don't know if that makes a huge difference or not.
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Old 11-01-2005, 10:55 AM   #3 (permalink)
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my 86 22re @ tdc is staright up at 12
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Old 11-01-2005, 11:26 AM   #4 (permalink)
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what does your $15 shop manual show?
go buy the cheap manual, it's invaluable for things like this
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Old 11-01-2005, 11:32 AM   #5 (permalink)
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on mine, just did last weekend, 82.
the dot ended up slightly towards the 11 position with the woodruff key in the crank at the 12 position.

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Old 11-01-2005, 12:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Old 11-01-2005, 12:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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ok

so what does it mean if its right on 12 like mine was with original 133k miles chain set ?

any reason there for it to have been running like only three cylinders were firing one day out of the blue ? (remember broken driver side guide and severely worn tensioner head)

thanks for further
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Old 11-01-2005, 12:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Old 11-01-2005, 01:13 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Wazz, yeah so that would have set your cam a little ahead of the crank

thats cool

and yeah i would assume there would be chain stretch beings that the timing set is the old 133k one

crank turns clockwise
slack is all on pass side of chain

so any extra chain stretch over time and such would have to cause cam sprocket to be more to counterclockwise direction-

in which would have to make the cam sprocket dot to move more and more counter clockwise
my old 133k stuff has my sprocket dot right on 12
driver side guide cracked and broke bolt hole,
tensioner severely worn

engine ran like three cylinders all of a sudden one day

T-cover has no chain wear at all, really nice shape, yet there was chain or something noise all the time, i drove for a year like that,


confused as hell

from everything ive read and seen so far,

hum.


thanks
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Old 11-01-2005, 01:50 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Old 11-01-2005, 02:01 PM   #11 (permalink)
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actually no, im way past the crank pulley and all that, timing cover is off and everything, the crank key is dead on 12 o clock

and its a 22RE



so am still confused

i was thinking that it might run that bad if the cam was behind due to chain stretch wear.
but no it looks to not have been behind at all

so hmm

i wonder why front or top of engine was so noisy all the time




thanks
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Old 11-01-2005, 04:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 11-01-2005, 05:05 PM   #13 (permalink)
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if you put the timing marks on zero the top dot will line up with the so called arrow on the rocker arm mechanics.
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Old 11-01-2005, 05:27 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Have you checked the basics? Which cyl. is missing? Whats the compression? Is that cyl. getting fuel? How about spark?
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Old 11-01-2005, 05:47 PM   #15 (permalink)
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On my last T-chain job (1985 22R), after installing a rebuilt, resurfaced head, I set the dot at 12:00 (one tooth off) and I immediately noticed a lack of power. I pulled the rocker cover and reset the dot on the cam sprocket to 11:30ish and everything performed normal. If the t-chain is set on the cam sprocket one (1) tooth off either way, you'll be at about 9 degrees off from the factory spec'd cam timing. 9 degrees advanced or 9 degrees retarded on the cam timing will probably be way too much and it will be noticeable!! That's just my worthless opinion.
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Old 11-01-2005, 07:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Old 11-02-2005, 07:20 AM   #17 (permalink)
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lol..


well so far it sounds like my cam is advanced

but thats impossible

i dont get it..

humm

thanks
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Old 11-02-2005, 08:14 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Old 11-02-2005, 09:27 AM   #19 (permalink)
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anyone else have any ideas ?


thanks
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Old 11-02-2005, 09:39 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Even if your cam timing is off one tooth on the cam your engine isn't going to have a "dead miss on one cyl." Get a new tc set and do some basic diagnostics.
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Old 11-02-2005, 09:54 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Keyways straight up at 12 o clock...

Chain links ,dots are not the marks we use .
Some cams that are reground or aftermarker may be different but most are pretty close to factory spec .
YOu can dial it in with a dial indicator and a degree wheel if your really worried. Remember to have the tension side of the chain or lead side as i call it tight,in turns clockwise making the Left hand,right hand side looking at the front of the engine , leading and pulling the cam . This should be tight,the other side should be pretty tight as well,but the spring loaded tensioner gets most of it's pressure from the oil pressure after it starts and is runing. YOu can adjust the guides on the lead side as well.

Hope this helps

Gary
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Old 11-02-2005, 12:20 PM   #22 (permalink)
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everything here is factory stock original 133k untouched

still factory guides and all

ok i have a new Q

the driver side guide broke the top bolt hole and was cracked up but still solid from end to end stress-wise

but the top of the guide was free to flop sideways along face of the block

is there anyway this could cause any problem that could cause engine to run bad ?

im not seeing this

heck i dont evne see the point of the driver side guide at all

why is the guide needed since this side of the chain is always tight ?


keyway is 12 o clock yes, but thats not what im concerned with, i am concerned about cam sprocket dot location at #1 TDC(when the crank key is 12 o clock yes)
my cam sprocket dot is at 12 o clock, evne with 133k miles

no chain wear at all?



thanks
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Old 11-02-2005, 02:14 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Chain would flop during idle. pulses of the engine, and it keeps it from flopping into the cover as it stretches. Some wear into them anyway when they get really bad and people ignore the noise...lol

I don't care about the dot unless that dot is off center from the factory alignment,ie an offset gear to retard or adavnce cam timing ahead or behind crankshaft. To be honest if the chain were really loose it can cause the timing to lag under load and acceleration,just like a loose timing belt does. For years we were adjusting the timing belts on the newr models becaus ethe would stretch and then be sluggish,idle rough , and run a little rough. The newer models have self adjusters,and have a spring loaded scissor type cam gear for the 4 cammers to keep tension on the belt which helps with engines pulses as well,same principle but if the chain stretches too much the guides are cheap from the factory and after a while they wear down and break. It's a combo of both the guide and the tensioner wearing down, the actual chain really ,in my opinion probably doesn't stretch that much. But it doesn't take much to make it sloppy during the start up unilt oil pressure pushes the tension against the chain more . Listen to any 22r starting after sitting overnite, you'll hear some noise from the chain,then it goes away almost immediatley. It comes back when it warms up and the oil pressure drops at idle but under normal conditons,that would be little old lady drivng to the market type of driving, it won't cause any problems or just snap . We on the other hand tend to over-rev and push the extreme when wheeling and that can be a problem for a loose chain. I would go with the aftermarket steel guides ,i think enginebuilder has a good set or any one of the companies in here who handle engine parts have them , and the tensioner.
Other than that you should be in good shape.
I would replace them because you are there now,no need to take apart twice
even though it looks good. 133k is pretty good miles for chain ,most aftermarket guides will last longer now though.

hope that helps you.. ):
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Old 11-02-2005, 02:53 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Well to me it doesn't sound like your trying to degree in the cam for PERFECT TDC so forgot about that converstion. The single MOST important part is that the silver links must be properly aligned with the dot on the crank sprocket and cam sprocket. That determines the relationship between the crank and the cam. everything else is secondary - like cam timing.
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Old 11-02-2005, 03:09 PM   #25 (permalink)
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